♪ > Welcome to a This Week In South Carolina Special Report I'm Gavin Jackson.

We are days away from the June 9th primary And the sprint is on, from the campaign trail to the debate stage.

I moderated SCETV's two gubernatorial debates this week.

And while all candidates did commit to participate.

Several Republicans dropped out the day before the Monday debate.

Starting with Lieutenant Governor Pamela Evette, Rom Reddy, and Attorney General Alan Wilson.

All for political reasons surrounding Evette's endorsement from President Trump.

We begin with opening statements from the three candidates that did join us Congresswoman Nancy Mace, Congressman Ralph Norman and Spartanburg Senator Josh Kimbrell, who dropped out of the race two days later.

> And good evening.

Serving South Carolina is the honor of my lifetime.

At the age of 17, when I decided to stop going to school, my father, who was a retired Army General, my mom, a retired school teacher in Goose Creek, said, "you have to start going to work."

And so that's when I took a job at the Waffle House on College Park Road in Ladson.

My family's from South Carolina.

I raised my children here.

I would eventually go on to college, and I would become the first woman to graduate from The Citadel the Military College of South Carolina, 26 years ago.

When I was in college, many people might not know I taught myself to code.

And my first job out of school was as a computer programmer, making about 35,000 dollars a year.

And I know the value of hard work.

I know the value of a good education.

I know the value of having to go back and get your high school diploma when you've had some hard times, and how tough it can be here in the state of South Carolina.

I look forward to the debate tonight.

Thank you and God bless you.

Gavin> Thank you.

Congressman Norman.

> I'm Ralph Norman from Rock Hill, South Carolina, an honor to be with you this evening.

I am not a lawyer.

I'm a businessman, who's spent 40 years in the private sector.

And, folks, I'll just ask you, How long are we going to allow for our roads and bridges to deteriorate?

How long are we going to have our businesses, who are paying exorbitant insurance rates- How long are we going to put up with that?

How long are we going to put up with our electricity costs that are out of the roof?

How long are we going to let, lawyers pick our judges?

Folks, it's time for a businessman to run this state, which needs to be run like a business.

How long are we going to allow politicians to serve forever and not go home and live under some of these laws that they make?

It's been an honor to serve, and it's going to be an honor to serve as your governor.

I look forward to the debate.

Gavin> Thank you, Congressman.

Senator Kimbrell.

> Well, good evening.

I'm happy to be here tonight with the two members who showed up.

And one of the things I would applaud, Congressman Norman and Congresswoman Mace is for being here.

Behind us tonight, you have the words of the Constitution, which starts with "We the people," not "We the thirty-second TV ad."

We're actually gonna have a substantive debate about what really matters.

You know, I've heard from many legislators across this country when I've met with legislators from other states, that "South Carolina politics is a blood sport."

Politics is rough.

We all know that.

But in this state, it's always tougher than everywhere else because it becomes a personality contest.

Nasty attacks versus actual substantive debate.

When I was in college, I worked in the governor's office under Mark Sanford, in his first term.

The same four issues- judicial reform, tax reform, regulatory reform, all these and frankly, school choice are all the same issues we talked about 20 years ago.

Why can't we advance the ball down the field?

Because our campaigns descend into chaos versus substance and real issues that matter to people of South Carolina.

I look forward to talking about those tonight.

Gavin> Congresswoman Mace, this next question starts with you.

That being said, what everyone just answered to that question.

The governor's office has slowly gained power over the years.

How do you work with the legislature to get your priorities accomplished?

And, for example, do you support the State Republican Party's federal lawsuit against the legislature to close primaries?

Rep.

Mace> Well, the greatest threat to democracy is open primaries here in the state of South Carolina.

That is something we have to fix, in our state.

We've been talking about it.

Republicans have been talking about closed primaries for over a decade.

And have they done it yet?

No, they have not.

Because the governor's seat is such a weak position, the governor does have to work with the legislature.

I came from the State Legislature.

I was in the State House for three years.

I know many of the State House lawmakers and State Senators.

I have great relationships with the President and members of his cabinet, secretaries when we're dealing with federal issues.

Having that relationship, those relationships is very, it would be very good for the state.

But it does go back to using your voice, using your bully pulpit.

The reason that we don't have, 15 genders on our college forms anymore in the state of South Carolina is because last year, I used my bully pulpit to raise awareness of the issue and the colleges and universities that were doing that, stopped doing that.

There's a reason that they're not doing gender-affirming care at MUSC, because two years ago, when I found out that was happening, I shut it down by using the bully pulpit.

And that's what I'll continue to do as governor.

Gavin> Thank you.

Congressman Norman.

Rep.

Norman> Well, the bully pulpit has not been used, in a long time for South Carolina.

And it should be.

You ought to set the agenda, as most CEOs do.

And you take the recent thing about redistricting.

The General Assembly didn't want to do that.

It's pretty obvious.

I predicted that, I called for it a year ago.

It should have been done.

And they didn't really have the appetite, nor did they want it.

President Trump was right to, since the Supreme Court ruling, to insist on this.

But the fact is, you've got to sell, what you're talking about, and you've got to make changes in this state.

It's going to take a strong CEO as governor to, to go to each one of you to say why the judges shouldn't be elected by, trial lawyers.

To tell you what term limits make a difference.

To say why the government is out of control and you're making South Carolina more unaffordable.

I will change that.

And I will highlight it when I become governor.

Gavin> Senator Kimbrell.

Sen.

Kimbrell> Well, for starters, I've actually worked hard in the legislature to close our primaries.

That being said, the Former General MacArthur back in the World War II era, said there's no substitute for victory.

You can introduce all the legislation you want.

It matters what actually passes.

And on everything from tort reform, regulatory reform, major tax reform and passing a constitutional amendment to ensure illegals don't vote in this state.

I've been the primary sponsor, or a major co-sponsor of every one of those bills to make sure it happens.

That's what you need in the governor's office.

There's two approaches- cause constitutionally, the governor's office is relatively weak.

You have to use the bully pulpit.

I worked for the Sanford Administration when I was in college, and Governor Sanford's approach was just steamroll the legislature, force them into his agenda.

That didn't work very well.

The current governor, Governor McMaster, and by extension, his Lieutenant Governor's approach is "y'all pass a bill, we might look at signing it."

Well, the Lieutenant Governor can't sign it, but the Governor can.

And so the idea is "send us a bill."

You got to have somebody that is going to quarterback and actually lead to make sure things actually happen.

Governor Carroll Campbell, in the 90s was the best modern governor and he was a former state senator.

Gavin> Thank you.

Congressman Norman, this question starts with you.

Medical marijuana is not legal in South Carolina, but the Department of Justice just moved to reschedule medical marijuana products from schedule one to schedule three, controlled substances.

Would you support or block legislative efforts for medical marijuana in the state?

Also, would you sign a bill to ban or a bill to regulate hemp-derived THC drinks and gummies?

> First of all, the hemp, issue we have in South Carolina and the THC, that's... you can buy at a, at a, any convenience store.

It's ruining our youth.

Medical marijuana- Marijuana is a gateway drug.

And to, to, say medical marijuana.

How do you regulate that?

There's medicine out there that any doctor will tell you, accomplishes the same effect that marijuana does?

I'm not for giving further rights on marijuana.

I'm for... on the hemp- originally and when it came through the General Assembly years ago, it was for making rope.

Well, that was the least of what it was doing.

It was a bait and switch.

And now we're, paying the price on that.

So I'm going to be very strict on the drugs that are, allowed in this state and will drive a hard bargain to, to legalize them and make them more available.

When it's really a ruse just to get the gateway of drugs, in this state.

And I won't do that.

Gavin> Senator Kimbrell.

> Well, like everything else, I've actually had to vote on this and work on it in the South Carolina Legislature.

So I do not support recreational marijuana in South Carolina.

I've always opposed that, always will.

That being said, I worked with Senator Tom Davis of Beaufort a number of years ago to strengthen a medical marijuana law that would be sure that it's never going to be, where you can burn leaf walking down the street.

But you could also help veterans with PTSD.

And the amendment that I offered that he supported and passed was ultimately to make sure it goes to a pharmacy with some kind of medical authorization.

As the THC drinks- There's a lot of folks that use THC drinks, even to sleep.

There's church ladies at the Baptist church who take THC drinks, even to sleep.

I don't support banning them, but I support regulating them.

No 14-year-old or 18-year-old should be able to buy a THC drink in South Carolina.

This year, in the Senate, we passed legislation that would ensure those drinks are behind the counter with a 21 and up ID and that gummies are in a liquor store.

I have no problem with therapeutics.

I have a problem with people getting high for recreational purposes, and I've actually fought on that in the legislature.

Gavin> Congresswoman Mace.

> Thank you so much.

We absolutely need regulation for hemp and hemp-derived products here in South Carolina.

We don't have that now.

That is something the General Assembly needs to take up.

I've worked on it at the federal level, and President Trump just rescheduled cannabis for medical purposes only to schedule three.

And... it's going to happen in our country, and the state of South Carolina is not ready for it.

There is not a bill right now to protect children from getting access to these things.

And make no mistakes, drugs are here.

Whether it's opioids, whether it's cannabis, whether it's other types of drugs.

You can walk down the street and in some places in South Carolina you can smell it.

And when you talk to folks at our airports where they're catching these people with drugs, they're shipping it in, they're flying it in on airplanes.

It's already here.

There are a lot of cannabis products from the state of California.

What we need to do is make sure when people are breaking the laws, that they're going to jail.

Because that's not happening in South Carolina, where we're talking about, someone who's using drugs, selling drugs, or we're talking about convicted... convicted pedophiles, etc.

No one goes to jail in our state for the crimes that they commit.

Gavin> Thank you, Congresswoman.

Question eight goes to you Senator Kimbrell.

A recent Winthrop poll found that 67 percent of South Carolinians said they find grocery costs as difficult or very difficult to afford.

Around 59 percent of respondents said that they find that health care costs, including prescription medication are difficult to pay for, as well as housing costs such as rent and mortgages.

What can you do, as governor to alleviate these specific cost pressures?

Sen.

Kimbrell> Well, number one, I go back to what I've said tonight, repeatedly.

You get rid of income taxes and make sure every family has more money in their pockets to pay for goods.

That does also mean we need to reduce regulations.

I was a co-sponsor of a major legislative overhaul this year of regulatory reform to ensure that we don't have so many regulations in this state.

There are 5,500 regulations- 5,500 regulations, leading to 20,000 new rules for every single business in this state.

So that's your grocery store, that's your pharmacist, that's your local deli.

20,000 rules tied to 5,500 regulations run by bureaucrats you didn't elect.

You want to reduce costs in South Carolina- You rollback the bureaucracy, you fire some folks and reduce the size and scope of government, reduce these regulations.

I have fought on that in the legislature, and a combination of real, meaningful income tax reform and regulatory reform goes an awful long way.

Additionally, this year we had a 50,000 dollar homestead exemption prior to this year in the Senate, I co-sponsored, with Senator Peeler and others a bill to triple that homestead exemption to 150,000 dollars to ensure that no senior loses their house because they can't pay a property tax bill.

Gavin> Thank you, Senator.

Congresswoman Mace.

Rep.

Mace> I have talked to so many people across the state, particularly our seniors, and the cost of groceries for our seniors, honestly, it's heartbreaking.

I spoke to a woman in Myrtle Beach in Horry County the other day who's, disabled.

She works part-time.

She makes 18,000 dollars a year, part-time.

She misses the threshold for SNAP.

She's just over it by about 3,000 dollars.

And, to listen to her story as a senior, to have to work part-time and not be able to put food on the table is very scary.

She's going to be forced out of her home because of the property taxes.

I had to sign her up for Meals on Wheels.

And I've talked to senior after senior, and we're talking about Medicare and the cost of Medicare.

I've done many proposals on the campaign trail.

I've written the bill where we don't tax groceries, we don't tax diapers or formula for babies, or we don't tax over-the-counter medications.

There are a lot of things that we can do in the meantime before we get to eliminate the state income tax, there are things that the State Legislature can do to make it less painful for people.

But the last thing we want to see right now are seniors being forced out of their homes because of their medical costs, because of property taxes.

And the legislature needs to take it up immediately.

Gavin> Congressman Norman.

Rep.

Norman> As CEO and as governor, you have to be an advocate, for cutting regulations.

How do you do that?

You go to the businesses that located here and ask them "If you were to relocate here again, what needs to be cut what's just frivolous?"

Our electricity cost- And it's not just our grocery costs- Our electricity costs is going up and up and up.

When have you ever seen a reduction in that?

Your medical bills, when have you seen a reduction in that?

A lot of that is the frivolous lawsuits that are filed now.

If you have, if a doctor has a bad outcome, then he faces a tremendous lawsuit.

We've got to get a handle on that.

I will be a voice for the businesses that are paying the tax.

I will be a voice for each one of you, who are burdened by taxes everywhere.

We have a state that people are coming here, and we ought to have the taxes reduced.

The General Assembly simply has not done it because it has not been a priority.

I will highlight it as governor of this state.

> Now for highlights from the Democratic gubernatorial debate, starting with opening statements from Billy Webster, Representative Jermaine Johnson and Mullins McLeod.

> This election boils down to two things- Who can win and who can lead.

I've started four successful businesses in four different industries.

I've worked for two presidents of the United States, and I had the pleasure to be Former Governor Dick Riley's Chief of Staff at The United States Department of Education.

I was Chairman of the Board of Prisma Health, the largest health organization in the state.

I was Chairman of the Board of the Nature Conservancy, the largest... conservation organization in the state.

And I was Chairman of the Board of Converse College.

When it comes to issues that face our state- education, affordability, health care, infrastructure, conservation- I have spent over 40 years in those areas solving problems and getting things done.

When it comes to thinking about who you want your next governor to be, we must nominate a governor who has gotten things done, who knows how to lead.

We must win, and we need a governor who will lead.

That person is me.

Gavin> Thank you.

Representative Johnson, your opening statement.

> Thank you.

Thank you, Gavin.

And, thank you so much, South Carolina, for tuning in.

I'm Representative Jermaine Johnson.

I'm a deacon, a husband, a father of four great, amazing children whom pictures I have on my tie this evening, for good luck.

This election is coming down to being one of the most critical elections in our lifetime.

For the last two decades, we've been under a single-party rule.

With a supermajority of Republican leadership in the House, a supermajority of Republican leadership in the Senate for the first time in 150 years.

They've got a Republican governor.

They've got Republican congressional district, with the exception of Congressman Clyburn.

They've got all the power that they could ever wish to have.

But yet our roads are the worst in the entire country.

We're 43rd in public education.

We have 600 unsolved murders just since 2020.

We have a lot of problems in this state.

Now, tonight, we'll be discussing who has the best vision to prepare our state to move forward to a new direction.

And I look forward to the robust discussion that we're going to have this evening.

Gavin> Great, thank you.

Mr.

McLeod, your opening statement.

> Good evening, and thank you for having me.

And thank you for hosting this debate.

To the people of South Carolina I want you to know that in this election cycle, there is something on the ballot that has not been there before and that's the people of South Carolina.

You see, as I've traveled the last ten months, what I've learned is the people of South Carolina feel powerless because they have no voice.

And I'm here to change that.

You're looking at a man who is a surrendered vessel whose heart belongs to God, and whose voice belongs to the people of South Carolina.

I have trained for the last 25 years in the private sector, being someone else's voice, representing their interests when it matters the most, carrying their burden when it was too heavy to carry.

So what the people of South Carolina have in this election- I'm the only person that gives them the opportunity to have all the power.

You see, I'm a servant leader.

Servant leaders know that I am not the master.

I am the servant.

And that is something that's not been on the ballot in an awful long time.

I give the people of South Carolina the opportunity to take all the power back in the state.

<Thank you, Mr.

McLeod.> And to dismantle this failed, broken and corrupt political establishment all by themselves.

Gavin> Alright, the first question starts with you, Representative Johnson.

A Democrat has not won statewide office since Jim Rex in 2006 and that was only by 455 votes and that was for Superintendent of Education.

Then Democratic Senator Vincent Sheheen, loss to then Republican Representative Nikki Haley for governor by four points in 2010 and that margin has only grown.

If you secure the nomination, what is your path forward to winning the general election?

Rep.

Johnson> Thank you so much for that question.

See what we learned in 2020, was that Jaime Harrison, when he ran for Senate, he got 1.1 million votes.

That means we know that in this state there are at least 1.1 million people who are willing to vote for a Democrat and a Black person, statewide.

What we learned also that next election cycle in 2022, Governor McMaster got 988,000 votes.

That means we can win in this state.

But we need somebody who's going to excite the base, who's going to reach people where they are.

Who's going to go to every nook and cranny of this state to talk to people who have, who have been forgotten about for far too long.

That's what I've been doing for the past year.

I've been going to places where they have never seen a candidate before.

And people are fired up.

They're excited.

They're ready for something new.

They're ready for something different.

And I think the people of South Carolina are ready for a new South Carolina.

Gavin> Thank you, Mr.

McLeod.

Mullins> Thank you.

So, here is the unfortunate reality of this trap that has happened to the people of South Carolina.

The corruption in our state is bipartisan.

When Mr.

Johnson talks about the majority, has been the problem, he fails to tell the people that he has voted with that supermajority more than 90 percent of the time.

And it's not by an accident.

Here's the problem- These for-profits who are not created by God, they were created by man.

They have been greasing both sides of the political track for longer than I've been alive.

So what happens is, these politicians in this political establishment, they serve their for-profit master instead of serving the people of South Carolina's interest, instead of protecting the people of South Carolina's interest.

One of the clearest examples is in the 2025 Legislative Session.

The role of state government is to protect the people from the power company preying upon them and jacking up their power bills.

But Mr.

Johnson, along with his supermajority friends, voted to increase everybody's power bills in this state.

<Thank you, Mr.

McLeod.> Thank you.

Gavin> You want to rebut that?

Rep.

Johnson> Absolutely.

So, it's hard to throw rocks when you have not been in the fight.

I worked directly with the Conservation Voters of South Carolina, with the Energy Justice Coalition, and with members of the Sierra Club to put amendments in that bill to take it from horrible to a little bit better.

And when you're in the superminority in the State House, that's all you can do is help alleviate some of the pain of the people of South Carolina.

I've never supported that bill.

Never wanted to support that bill.

But when I have to bow down for the people of South Carolina, I will always be a servant for the people of South Carolina.

Gavin> Mr.

Webster, your response to that question?

Mr.

Webster> I've worked my entire life to find common ground between Republicans and Democrats.

I worked for a Republican president, and I also worked for Bill Clinton in his White House.

I watched Dick Riley and I watched Bill Clinton build coalitions to pass some of the most sweeping, important substantive legislation of their careers by working across party lines, finding common ground, bringing people together to solve problems.

That's the difference between politics and governing.

To be successful in business, to be a successful board member, to be successful in almost any walk of life, you got to find common ground with people that you disagree with.

That is how I have built successful companies, run successful boards, and how I was responsive both in the White House and the United States Department of Education.

I've watched it happen.

I know how it's done, and I will do it as governor.

> Okay.

Now, question five will go to you, Mr.

McLeod.

Data centers have been touted as critical infrastructure in the AI race, but they also have impacts on communities in addition to tax revenue.

There has been substantial pushback in communities across the state to prevent data centers from locating there.

Other areas have quietly approved confidential data center projects that are barely disclosed.

Do you support data centers?

Would you block them, push for a moratorium on them, or greater regulation?

> So you know who's not buying the data center snake oil?

The people of South Carolina.

They ain't buying it, folks.

Because these data centers, they do not create jobs.

All they do is rob our water and drive up the cost of our power.

Now, when Mr.

Johnson had the, had the opportunity to fight to protect our water, it was God's gift to us, not these for-profit data centers- He chose to allow these for-profits to steal the water right out from underneath our feet, and not even tell us how much of it that they're taking.

I'm the only person running for governor who has made it crystal clear there will be no data centers in South Carolina when Mullins McLeod becomes governor.

The most powerful word in the English language is "no."

And it's free.

But you know who does not say no to these for-profits?

This incredibly corrupt political establishment.

Now, the reason why Mr.

Webster said that he wanted a one-year moratorium- He doesn't want you to know that his private equity firm, where he's a director of- Golub Capital, just closed a billion dollar investment- <Thank you, sir.> In the beast itself.

Gavin> Thank you, Mr.

McLeod.

Mullins> And they need the data center- Gavin> Mr.

McLeod, please.

Mullins> Sometimes, I need more than a minute.

Gavin> I know, but these are the rules we all agreed to.

It's okay.

Representative Johnson, you were invoked first, and then will come to you Billy.

Do you want to respond for 30 seconds?

Rep.

Johnson> I mean, is it my turn to answer the question?

Gavin> It's a rebuttal.

And then will come back to you for the full question.

Rep.

Johnson> I'll just answer the question.

Then you're gonna throw me off, and then we're gonna be back to where we started from.

If you want to wait, we'll come to you.

I'll give you a minute-thirty, if you want to... also, deal with that rebuttal there too, Billy.

Billy> To Jermaine or to me?

Gavin> He didn't want to rebut, so we're gonna go to you.

> Oh, okay, so just a brief rebuttal.

I have no idea what he's talking about.

I don't own a private equity firm.

There are two Golub Capitals, if you had done your homework.

One of them, I have nothing to do- It's a real estate development firm.

I have no idea what you're talking about.

Which is true, most of the time, I have no idea what you're talking about.

Gavin> And then you have a minute to talk about data centers.

Do you support data centers?

Would you block them or push for moratorium or greater regulations?

Billy> Rolling one-year moratorium on data centers.

Look, we're going to learn a lot more about data centers over time.

But let me tell you, I went to Marion County and watched, as you described at one of the most heinous... developments of a data center I've ever seen.

It... the local council was prohibited by a nondisclosure agreement from discussing with their constituents what the data center had proposed and where they had proposed it.

I read the entire 66-page document.

It was full of errors, omissions and misstatements.

That, that data center... siting was passed in the middle of the night when a snowstorm was forecasted in Marion County.

Same thing is happening in Spartanburg on South Pine Street, where I used to live.

There are two problems here.

One is the way these things occur and there's no transparency.

The other is the, the effect that they have on our local communities, farms and environment.

Gavin> And Representative Johnson on data centers.

> Thank you so much.

Listen, I don't know what Mr.

McLeod is talking about.

But I'm the one who introduced a joint resolution to put a moratorium on the issuance of any permits or the construction of any data centers in South Carolina until the General Assembly puts guardrails up and deals with the situation.

We have to know about the technology.

We have to know about where they're going and how they're going to be doing it.

I'm the one who coined the phrase "BYOE."

If you're gonna come to South Carolina, bring your own energy.

You cannot come here and use up our resources.

You cannot come up here and drive up our energy costs.

In all of our caucus meetings talking to Dominion Energy, Duke Energy, talking about what they're going to do with Santee... with, with data centers.

And how is it going to have an effect on the people of South Carolina?

I've been the spokesperson for Conservation Voters of South Carolina against all of these different issues that we have with data centers and energy costs.

So I've been a fighter for the people for a long time.

You have to know how to work with the people in the General Assembly, if you want to stop some of the craziness that's coming down the pipeline, that's going to effect the people of South Carolina.

Gavin> Gotcha.

That was a fun, quick hour.

We have to leave it there tonight, folks.

<Is it over?> Gavin> It's over, I'm sorry, guys.

But thank you to all of our candidates.

You can watch this debate and more coverage at youtube.com/@SCETVnews It's all right there.

And you can join us on June 9th for our live election night coverage.

That starts at 8 p.m.

We will also carry it on South Carolina Public Radio and on our social media platforms.

I'm Gavin Jackson, from all of us here at South Carolina ETV and Public Radio, thanks for tuning in and good night.

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