>>> HELLO EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & COMPANY".

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> VENEZUELA SENDS ITS DRUGS BUT VENEZUELA CENSUS PEOPLE THEY SHOULDN'T BE SENDING.

>> TRUMP RAMPS UP THREATS AGAINST VENEZUELA, THE ADMINISTRATION FACES SERIOUS QUESTIONS FROM CONGRESS BUT TO THE PRESIDENT'S ACTIONS HAVE SUPPORT IN THE REGION?

I'LL ASK COLUMBIA'S FORMER PRESIDENT.

THEN -- ♪ ♪ DEFINES IN IRAN, JOURNALISTS, TELLS US ABOUT THE YOUNGER GENERATION.

AS PUTIN THREATENS EUROPE, IS PEACE IN UKRAINE POSSIBLE AND WHAT WILL IT TAKE?

JOURNALIST JOSHUA YAFFA JOINS MICHEL MARTIN.

>>> "AMANPOUR & COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE EDISON FAMILY ENDOWMENT, JIM ATWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, CANDACE KING WE ARE, THE SYLVIA A AND SIMON B PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTI-SEMITISM, THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LAYLA AND MICKEY STRAUSS, THE D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION, THE PETER G PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND, CHARLES ROSENBLUM, MONIQUE, PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE, I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION HAS SOME SERIOUS QUESTIONS TO ANSWER AS CONGRESS PROBES THE SO-CALLED DOUBLE TAP STRIKE THAT KILLED SURVIVORS DURING AN ATTACK ON AN ALLEGED DRUG BOAT IN THE CARIBBEAN.

A POTENTIAL WAR CRIME.

THE ADMINISTRATION INSISTS WHAT IT DID WAS LEGAL AND THEY HIT 21 BOTH AS PART OF THEIR SELF DECLARED WAR ON NARCO TERRORISM.

OF COURSE, IT'S PART OF A WIDER CAMPAIGN THOUGH THAT SEEMS AIMED AT VENEZUELA AND ITS LEADER, MADURO, THE U.S.

HAS NOW DEPLOYED MORE MILITARY RESOURCES AND FORCES IN THE REGION THAN AT ANY TIME SINCE THE CUBAN MISSILE CRISIS.

SO, THE ALARM BELLS RINGING IN LATIN AMERICA?

WELL, NOT REALLY.

THE PRESIDENT ACTIONS HAVE PLENTY OF SUPPORTERS THERE LIKE MY FIRST GUEST TONIGHT, WHO WAS PRESIDENT OF COLUMBIA FOR 2018 TO 2022, MANY OF VENEZUELANS FLED TO THE COUNTRY AT THAT TIME SO THERE'S NO LOVE LOST THERE FOR MADURO.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH, IT'S ALWAYS A PLEASURE TO BE WITH YOU.

>> YOU ARE JOINING ME FROM YALE WHERE YOU ARE TEACHING, SO YOU ARE SEEING THE AMERICAN REACTION AND YOU KNOW IT'S HAPPENING IN YOUR OWN COUNTRY ON YOUR OWN CONTINENT.

BUT, HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN, I'VE SAID YOU ARE A SUPPORTER OF PRESIDENT TRUMP'S ACTIONS THAT 53% OF PEOPLE ACROSS LATIN AMERICA SUPPORT US MILITARY INTERVENTION IN VENEZUELA, THAT'S ACCORDING TO A BLOOMBERG POLL.

>> THE FIRST THING TO SAY, CHRISTIANE, IS THIS IS NOT THE FIRST TIME WE HAVE A CAMPAIGN OF THIS NATURE IN THE CARIBBEAN, AS YOU KNOW, IN 2018, WE STARTED A PLAN OF WHAT'S CALLED THE , WHERE COLUMBIA PARTICIPATED WITH THE U.S.

AND 18 MORE COUNTRIES IN ORDER TO DO EFFECTIVE INTRODUCTION AGAINST NARCO TRAFFICKING AND I THINK THAT HAD AN IMPORTANT SUCCESS AT THE TIME, NOW, UNITED STATES IS DEPLOYING MORE MILITARY RESOURCES AND I THINK THIS IS AN EFFECTIVE DETERRENT, AND I HAVE TO ALSO MENTION THAT THIS IS ALSO A MESSAGE TO MADURO.

HE HAS PROVIDED SAFE HAVEN TO NARCO TERRORIST AS A ROUTE TO DEPLOY COCAINE THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE CARIBBEAN.

>> A ROUTE?

>> I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT OPERATION THAT NEEDS TO BE SEEN AS SOMETHING THAT IS COMPREHENSIVE AS IN INTERDICTION CAMPAIGN THAT WE MUST BELIEVE WILL HAVE A POTENTIAL BENEFIT FOR THE REGION.

>> LOOK, I KNOW THAT'S YOUR POSITION.

IT'S MUCH MORE THAN IN INTERDICTION CAMPAIGN BECAUSE PRESIDENT TRUMP IS ACTUALLY SITTING IN THE WHITE HOUSE SAYING THAT HE'S GOING TO BOMB THE MAINLAND OF VENEZUELA AND BY THE WAY, MAYBE EVEN YOUR COUNTRY, COLUMBIA, BECAUSE HE SAID YOU MAKE COCAINE.

SO, ARE YOU NOT A LITTLE BIT WORRIED?

>> WELL, CHRISTIANE, AS YOU KNOW, DURING MY ADMINISTRATION, WE HAD A CLOSE RELATIONSHIP WITH THE UNITED STATES, WHICH WAS BIPARTISAN AND ALSO, WE WORKED WITH PRESIDENT BIDEN AND PRESIDENT TRUMP AND THE PREVIOUS ADMINISTRATIONS WORKED WITH OBAMA, BUSH AND CLINTON.

IT WAS VERY SUCCESSFUL, THE WORK WE HAD BETWEEN COLUMBIA AND THE U.S.

AND WE DESTROYED LABS, WE PHASED OUT MANY OF THE CARTELS, IN FACT, FOR EXAMPLE, EXTRADITED, TO THE UNITED STATES WHICH WAS THE MOST DANGEROUS CAMPAIGN AFTER PABLO ESCOBAR.

TODAY, SADLY TO SAY BECAUSE PEDRO HAS ALIGNED WITH MADURO, WE DON'T HAVE THAT LEVEL OF SUPPORT AND YOU HAVE SEEN FOR EXAMPLE, THE INTERDICTION MEMBERS HAVE DROPPED, HOW, FOR EXAMPLE, THERE'S BEEN MORE PERMISSIVE BEHAVIOR WITH THE NARCO TRAFFICKING ORGANIZATIONS, SO I THINK THIS HAS CREATED A LOT OF TENSION.

I HOPE THAT THERE PRESIDENT CAN GIVE IT A SECOND THOUGHT AND NOT KEEP SUPPORTING MADURO AND ALLOWED THE YOU S AND COLOMBIAN FORCES TO KEEP ON DOING THE STRATEGIC STRIKES AGAINST THE CARTELS.

IF NOT, I THINK WE WILL ONLY MAKE COLUMBIA AN ACCOMPLICE.

YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT YOUR SUCCESSOR WHO'S FROM A DIFFERENT PARTY FROM YOU AND YOU ARE DESCRIBING YOUR DIFFERENCES AND HIS DIFFERENCES, BUT CAN WE JUST PLEASE, DISCUSS HONESTLY, WHAT THIS IS REALLY ABOUT, BECAUSE MOST OF THE PEOPLE WHO ARE COMMENTING ON IT POINT OUT, CORRECTLY, THE ACTUALLY, VENEZUELA IS NOT CLASSICALLY WELL YOU CAN DESCRIBE IT HOW YOU WANT, WHETHER IT'S NARCO TERRORISTS OR NOT, BUT FACILITATING THE ROUTING OF IT BUT YOU ARE THE COUNTRY, COLUMBIA, THAT SENT 3000 TONS OF COCAINE TO THE U.S.

IN 2023, ACCOUNTS FOR ABOUT 70% OF THE WORLDS OVERALL COCAINE PRODUCTION, AS YOU SAID, VENEZUELA IS A TRANSIT ROUTE, ONLY 5% OF YOUR COCAINE PASSES THROUGH THERE, 96% OF SENTINEL SEIZED BY THE UNITED STATES IS INTERCEPTED ON THE MEXICO BORDER.

THERE'S LITERALLY NO VENEZUELA CONNECTION TO THE SENTINEL TRADE AND PRODUCTION, OR INDEED, THE COCAINE PRODUCTION.

SO I'M TRYING TO FIGURE OUT, IS THIS REALLY ABOUT NARCO TERRORISM?

OR, IN THE CASE OF VENEZUELA, IS IT ABOUT A CONTINENT THAT HAD ENOUGH WITH MADURO, AND WANTS TO GET RID OF HIM?

>> WELL, I THINK, WE HAVE TO SEE IT IN A HOLISTIC WAY, MANY TIMES THAT I'VE BEEN SHARING THE SITUATION WITH YOU, YOU KNOW THAT I DENOUNCE MADURO BEFORE THE INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL COURT IN 2019 WHEN I WAS PRESIDENT OF COLUMBIA, AND YOU KNOW THAT FOR VARIOUS YEARS, I ANNOUNCED THAT HE WAS THE HEAD OF A CARTEL CALLED THE CARTEL, WHERE HIM AND HIS CRONIES HAVE BEEN DISSIPATING IN NARCO TRAFFICKING OPERATIONS.

AND I THINK THERE'S BEEN AN ADVANCE IN THE WAY THE UNITED STATES HAS DEALT WITH THIS BECAUSE THEY HAVE DECLARED THAT CARTEL A FOREIGN TERRORIST ORGANIZATION WHICH I THINK WAS SOMETHING THAT WAS SPEND THE, AND THAT PARTICULAR CARTEL HAS ALLOWED MANY OF THE COLOMBIAN NARCO TERRORIST ORGANIZATIONS TO HAVE A SAFE HAVEN IN VENEZUELA.

IT'S HAPPENED WITH, IT'S HAPPENED, AND THEY HAVE USED THE COLOMBIAN BORDERING LINE AS A SAFE HAVEN FOR THEM TO DO CROSS-BORDER OPERATIONS, AND YES, ALSO MADURO, HAS ANOTHER CRIMINAL STRUCTURE LINKED TO THE CARTEL DE LOS SOLES THAT IS TREN DE ARAGUA AND THEY HAVE BEEN DOING NARCO TRAFFICKING OPERATIONS.

SO, SO, IS IT VENEZUELA, THE WHOLE PROBLEM?

NO, BUT IT'S A SUBSTANTIAL PART OF THE PROBLEM AND OBVIOUSLY, IF YOU KEEP HAVING A CARTEL RUNNING THE COUNTRY, IT WOULD ONLY BECOME A THREAT TO REGIONAL SECURITY, HEMISPHERIC SECURITY ANY THREAT TO UNITED STATES NATIONAL SECURITY.

>> AS YOU KNOW, CRITICS AND ANALYSTS DISPUTE EVEN WHETHER CARTEL DE LOS SOLES IS EVEN A CARTEL AND I GET YOUR POINT.

THERE ARE DIFFERENT VIEWS AROUND LATIN AMERICA.

ARGENTINA, ECUADOR, PANAMA, LIKE YOU, SAY THEY SUPPORT YOU US MILITARY INTERVENTION TO DEPOSE PRESIDENT MADURO.

SEVERAL OTHERS, LIKE THE MEXICAN PRESIDENT, THE BRAZILIAN PRESIDENT, THEY ARE QUIETER, AVOIDING BIG STATEMENTS BECAUSE IT SEEMS THAT THEY ARE MORE WORRIED ABOUT WHAT MIGHT HAPPEN YOU KNOW, IF THEY ANTAGONIZE THE UNITED STATES.

SO, AGAIN, I GUESS ONE QUESTION IS, IF YOU GUYS ARE ALSO COMMITTED TO REMOVING MADURO FOR WHATEVER REASONS YOU CITE, WHY DON'T YOU DO IT YOURSELVES?

WHY DOES THE UNITED STATES HAVE TO DO IT?

>> WELL, THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION, CHRISTIANE, AS YOU KNOW, THERE'S SOMETHING VERY IMPORTANT IN THIS REGION, AND IT'S THAT WE ARE ONE OF , OR EXCLUSIVELY THE REGION IN THE WORLD THAT HAS AN INTER- AMERICAN DEMOCRATIC CHARTER, AND THAT CHARTER INVITES US ALL TO WORK JOINTLY IN THE DEFENSE OF THE RULE OF LAW AND DEFENSE OF DEMOCRACY.

MADURO IS A DICTATOR, YES, BUT IS ALSO A NARCO DICTATOR, HEAD OF A CRIMINAL ORGANIZATION, AND I THINK WE ALL HAVE TO USE OUR DIPLOMATIC POWER, DIPLOMATIC COORDINATION, AND ALSO OUR SECURITY COORDINATION TO FIGHT THE THREAT.

AND THE FACT THAT UNITED STATES HAS SEEN THIS AS A THREAT FOR THE HEMISPHERE, IT POINTS OUT THAT MADURO IS NOT ONLY SUPPORTING TERRORISTS IN HIS TERRITORY BUT IS ALSO ALLOWED THE PRESENCE OF HEZBOLLAH EFFECTIVE IN THAT TERRITORY AND HE'S ALSO FROM VENEZUELA, USED ITS TERRITORY TO ALLOW ENEMIES OF THE UNITED STATES TO PLOT AGAINST U.S.

ASSETS IN THE REGION.

THAT'S WHY THE U.S.

HAS ALSO BEEN VERY MUCH INVOLVED.

BUT I HAVE TO SAY SOMETHING ELSE, CHRISTIANE, AND YOU HEARD THIS FROM ME MANY TIMES.

NICOLAS MADURO IS THE EQUIVALENT OF MELISSA FITCH IN LATIN AMERICA, BRUTAL VIOLATIONS OF HUMAN RIGHTS, SYSTEMATIC ANNIHILATION OF OPPOSERS, AND ALSO A PROMOTER OF CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY ON A PERMANENT BASIS AND IS ALSO STOLEN ELECTIONS IN THE COUNTRY FOR A PERMANENT BASE, IN ORDER TO KEEP HIS ILLEGAL STRUCTURE.

SO I THINK THE FIGHT AGAINST MADURO IN THE UNITED STATES, BECAUSE YOU'VE MENTIONED THAT MANY TIMES, IT IS, ONE IMPORTANT TO SAY BIPARTISAN, SECOND, IT'S BICAMERAL, AND I THINK MOST OF THE COUNTRIES THAT RESPECT THE RULE OF LAW THAT DEFEND DEMOCRACY WERE UNITED THAT IT IS A GOOD AIM TO OUST MADURO OUT OF POWDER -- POWER AND FACILITATE A DEMOCRATIC TRANSITION IN VENEZUELA.

>> THERE'S CRITICISM IN THE UNITED STATES.

THERE'S NO STATED LEGAL BASIS FOR THIS.

PRESIDENT TRUMP ALSO SAYS THAT HE DOESN'T EVEN HAVE TO GET CONGRESSES POSITION.

THEY CAN KEEP, I'M GOING TO PARAPHRASE, KILLING THE BAD GUYS.

BUT LET ME TAKE YOUR OTHER POINT.

IN TERMS OF STEALING THE ELECTIONS.

I SPOKE WITH THE KEY OPPOSITION PERSON, THE NOBEL PEACE LAUREATE, NOT ONLY DOES SHE SUPPORT THIS INTERVENTION BUT SHE DEDICATED HER NOBEL PRIZE TO PRESIDENT TRUMP BECAUSE OF WHAT HE'S DOING AND THIS IS WHAT SHE TOLD ME ABOUT THAT.

>> OH, BECAUSE IT'S ABSOLUTELY FAIR, AND THAT'S WHAT THE VENEZUELAN PEOPLE FEEL.

WE ARE GETTING, FINALLY A LEADERSHIP THAT IS ADDRESSING THIS TRAGIC SITUATION IN VENEZUELA THAT HAS BEEN GOING FOR 26 YEARS, AS IT SHOULD, WE'VE BEEN ASKED THAT THIS CRIMINAL STRUCTURE BE ADDRESSED, USING LAW ENFORCEMENT, AND THAT'S FINALLY WHAT'S HAPPENING.

>> SHE ALSO SAID TO ME THAT IF THE ELECTION HAD BEEN RESPECTED, REGIME CHANGE WOULD HAVE HAPPENED ANYWAY BECAUSE HER PARTY WOULD HAVE BEEN IN OFFICE.

SO, QUESTION THOUGH, IS SHE SPEAKING FOR ALL THE VENEZUELAN PEOPLE?

AND EXPLAIN IT TO ME, WITHIN VENEZUELA, SUPPORT FOR U.S.

INTERVENTION IS ABOUT 34% ACCORDING TO THE SAME BLOOMBERG POLL, AMONGST VENEZUELAN DIASPORA, OUTSIDE, SUPPORT IS 64%.

SO THERE'S CLEARLY A LOT OF AGITATED OUTSIDE, LESS THAN HALF THE PEOPLE SUPPORT IT FROM THE INSIDE.

TELL ME HOW YOU ANALYZE THAT?

>> WELL, CHRISTIANE, WE'VE SEEN IN LATIN AMERICA BUT ALSO IN THE WORLD, MORE THAN 7 MILLION VENEZUELANS THAT HAVE LEFT THE COUNTRY, IN SEEKING OPPORTUNITIES BECAUSE OF ALL THE DESTRUCTION THAT MADURO HAS TRIGGERED.

SO, IS IT GOOD FOR THE VENEZUELAN PEOPLE TO OUST MADURO?

YES.

IS IT GOOD FOR THE REGION?

OBVIOUSLY, YES.

AND I THINK THE TRIGGERING, THE TRIGGERING OF A DEMOCRATIC SYSTEM THAT IS CREDIBLE AND BASED ON THE RULE OF LAW IS NOT ONLY BENEFICIAL TO VENEZUELA, BUT AN OFFICIAL TO THE WHOLE REGION.

BUT I ALSO HAVE TO SAY SOMETHING THAT IS ESSENTIAL.

WE HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT THE SITUATION IN VENEZUELA IS THE MOST DANGEROUS MIGRATION CRISIS EVER GENERATED IN THIS REGION.

AND THE HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS THAT ARE TAKING PLACE IN VENEZUELA, IT'S INSANE.

THE UNITED STATES, HISTORICALLY, PLAYED AN IMPORTANT ROLE, AND THE UNITED STATES HAS TAKEN OPERATIONS AGAINST TERRORISTIC ORGANIZATIONS.

SO I THINK THERE IS A LEGAL BASIS, AND WHEN PEOPLE ASKED ME, DO I BELIEVE THERE WILL BE AN INVASION?

I DON'T THINK THIS REQUIRES AN INVASION.

I THINK THERE HAS TO BE AN OPERATION THAT WILL BE SUPPORTED BY SOME PEOPLE WITHIN THE STRUCTURE OF POWER IN VENEZUELA, BUT I THINK THERE HAS TO BE NOW, A PLAN, TO CONSTRUCT A UNITY GOVERNMENT, AND A FRAMEWORK THAT WOULD ALLOW THE VENEZUELANS FOR THE FIRST TIME IN 25 YEARS, TO REALLY ENJOY DEMOCRACY, THE ECONOMIC FREEDOMS, AND A CREDIBLE RULE OF LAW SYSTEM.

THIS IS A MUST FOR THE HEMISPHERE, AND IN ORDER TO EMBRACE, PROTECT AND DEFEND THE DEMOCRATIC CHARTER THAT WE HAVE IN THE AMERICAN SYSTEM.

>> THERE'S NO DOUBT THAT HE IS AN UNPOPULAR MAN.

I'VE INTERVIEWED HIM MYSELF, I KNOW HIS COMMITMENT TO DEMOCRACY, IF I CAN PUT IT THAT WAY, IS SERIOUSLY LACKING FROM WHAT HE TOLD ME.

BUT I WANT TO ASK YOU ALSO, YOU MENTIONED A WHOLE BUNCH OF EXAMPLES, YOU DIDN'T MENTION IRAQ, WHICH WAS A CASE OF INTERVENTION TO DEPOSE UNDER THE COVER OF YOU KNOW, W AND B WHICH PROVES NOT TO BE THE CASE, AND AS YOU KNOW IT TURNED INTO A HUGE ISSUE, A DEBACLE, SOME WOULD SAY WITH DECADES OF BACKLASH.

ARE YOU NOT SLIGHTLY AFRAID, WHAT MAKES VENEZUELA DIFFERENT?

>> WELL, I THINK ALSO, HISTORICALLY SPEAKING, CHRISTIANE, I THINK THE UNITED STATES HAS LEARNED LESSONS FROM OCCUPATION OPERATIONS, AND I DON'T THINK THEY'RE PLANNING TO DO AND OCCUPATION OPERATION IN THE CASE OF VENEZUELA.

I THINK THERE WILL BE SOME KIND OF AN OPERATION THAT WOULD ALLOW A TRANSITION TO TAKE PLACE WHICH I THINK IS PRETTY MUCH NEEDED.

BUT I ALSO HAVE TO SAY AND I KNOW WHAT I'M GOING TO SAY IS CONTROVERSIAL, BUT I THINK, WHEN YOU LOOK AT IRAQ TODAY, DEFINITELY, IT'S IN A MUCH BETTER PLACE THAN IT WAS DURING SADDAM HUSSEIN, HIS GOVERNMENT.

NOW, WAS A SUCCESS THE OPERATION IN IRAQ?

THERE ARE CRITICISM TO BE MADE BUT THERE ARE ALSO THINGS TO BE APPLAUDED.

BUT IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE, I DON'T THINK THE U.S.

IS THINKING IN VENEZUELA AS AN OCCUPATION OPERATION AS IT DID IN THE CASE OF IRAQ.

I THINK THERE IS A GREAT ROOM TO CREATE A UNITY GOVERNMENT THAT WOULD ALLOW A TRANSITION FOR DEMOCRACY AND ALSO FOR THE IMPLEMENTATION OF A CREDIBLE RULE OF LAW, A SYSTEM, AND IF MADURO KEEPS STAYING IN POWER, WHAT WE ARE GOING TO SEE IS MORE MIGRATION, MORE NARCO TRAFFICKING AND MORE PROTECTION OF TERRORISTS IN HIS SOIL.

IT'S NOT GOOD FOR THE HEMISPHERE TO ALLOW MADURO TO REMAIN IN OFFICE SPECIFICALLY, WHEN HE IS AN EQUIVALENT OF MILOúEVIBASED ON HIS HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATION RECORD.

>> AS YOU KNOW, MILOúEVIWAS TRIED FOR GENOCIDE AND SO WERE HIS HAND PEOPLE WHICH IS SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT BUT I UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU ARE SAYING, TO AN EXTENT BUT I WANT TO ASK ABOUT DOUBLE STANDARDS, AND HOW WE ARE MEANT TO MAKE SENSE OF HOW THE U.S.

POLICY IS BECAUSE AS YOU KNOW, JUST THIS WEEK, THE FORMER HONDURAN PRESIDENT, HERNANDEZ, RECEIVED A PARDON FROM PRESIDENT TRUMP.

HE HAD BEEN SENTENCED TO 45 YEARS IN PRISON IN NEW YORK FOR TAKING BRIBES FROM WHAT?

DRUG TRAFFICKERS, WHO MOVED SOME 400 TONS OF COCAINE THROUGH HONDURAS TO THE UNITED STATES.

I MEAN, CAN YOU MAKE HEAD OR TAILS OF THAT?

ON THE ONE HAND, HE FREES AN ACTUAL PERSON WHO'S BEEN CONVICTED IN THE U.S.

FOR DOING THIS STUFF, AND ON THE OTHER HAND, HE'S PURSUING THIS, THIS ANTI-DRUG TRAFFICKING THING AGAINST MADURO?

>> CHRISTIANE, I DON'T KNOW WHAT WERE THE ARGUMENTS -- >> YOU KNOW WHAT HE WAS CONVICTED OF AND HE'S NOW BEEN PARTED.

>> I MEAN, I, I CAN TELL YOU BY MY OWN EXPERIENCE, CHRISTIANE, BECAUSE I THINK IT'S THE BEST JUDGMENT I HAVE AVAILABLE, WHEN I WAS IN OFFICE, AND AS I SAID, I SERVED DURING PRESIDENT TRUMP'S FIRST ADMINISTRATION BUT ALSO DURING BIDEN'S ADMINISTRATION, AND WE HAD A VERY STRONG SUPPORT TO FIGHT NARCO TRAFFICKING, AND ALL OF ITS FORMS INCLUDING AND ALSO THE EXTRADITION OF MEMBERS OF THE DRUG CARTELS THAT WERE TRIALED IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.

SO FAR, I THINK THE STRATEGY THAT THE UNITED STATES HAS AGAINST ALL THESE CARTELS HAS BEEN BIPARTISAN AND I THINK THAT SHOULD REMAIN LIKE THAT BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT THE REGION REQUIRES, AND IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE, I JUST HOPE THERE CAN BE A FURTHER EXPLANATION FROM THE LEGAL ADVISOR ON WHY THAT PARDON WAS JUSTIFIED.

BECAUSE AS YOU KNOW THOSE ARE NOT DECISIONS THAT COME OUT OF THE PRESIDENTS MIND.

THEY HAVE TO BE BASED ON A RIGOROUS STUDY OF THE CIRCUMSTANCES.

I HOPE THOSE THINGS CAN BE EXPLAINED.

>> I DO TOO.

>> BUT I BELIEVE IT IS A DUTY AT THIS MOMENT, TO KEEP ON FIGHTING THE CARTELS, FIGHT THE BIANNA GOLODRYGA CARTEL AND THEN MARRED MADURO , LET ME ALSO SAY THIS, I THINK THE BEST LEGACY THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP CAN CONTRIBUTE, IN DEFENSE OF THE DEMOCRATIC CHARTER OF THE AMERICAS, IS THAT WORKING WITH ALL OF THESE ADMINISTRATIONS THAT DEFEND DEMOCRACY IS THAT BY THE END OF THIS TERM, WE DON'T HAVE MORE DICTATORS IN LATIN AMERICA.

>> OKAY.

>> OF ALL THE GOVERNMENTS THAT WANT TO HAVE A REGION GOVERNED BY DEMOCRACY AS A CORNERSTONE.

>> AS TIGHTLY AS YOU CAN, THE POLITICS ARE SLIGHTLY CHANGING IN A WAVE ACROSS LATIN AMERICA.

THEY ARE BECOMING MUCH MORE CONSERVATIVE THAN PERHAPS THEY WERE A FEW YEARS AGO.

DO YOU THINK THAT'S PART OF IT AND BY THE WAY YOU SAY YOU HOPE THE U.S.

CAN REMOVE DICTATORS, AS YOU KNOW, THE U.S., HISTORICAL EXPERIENCE, WITH INTERVENTION IN LATIN AMERICA HAS BEEN TO INTRODUCE AND TO PROP UP MILITARY DICTATORSHIP.

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, CHRISTIANE, I THINK WE'VE ALL LEARNED FROM THE HISTORICAL LESSONS.

I JUST HAVE TO SAY THAT ONE OF THE BIG CONQUEST THAT WE HAVE IN INSTITUTIONAL TERMS IN THIS REGION IS THE INTER-AMERICAN DEMOCRATIC CHARTER.

THAT IS SOMETHING THAT HAS TO UNITE US.

WHAT WE ARE SEEING IN CUBA AND NICARAGUA AND VENEZUELA, IS JUST INSANE, OUR CONSTANT VIOLATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS AND IT'S NOT JUST THE UNITED STATES, REGIONALLY, WE ALL HAVE TO WORK TOWARDS THAT PURPOSE.

AND I THINK WHEN YOU MENTIONED ABOUT THIS IDEOLOGICAL CHANGES, NOTHING MORE THAN IDEOLOGICAL, I THINK PEOPLE HAVE REALIZED THAT POPULISM, AND POLARIZATION, JUST FOR THE SAKE OF WINNING ELECTIONS IS NOT WORKING AND THAT'S WHY PEOPLE NOW PREFER, NO MORE DEMIGODS BUT PENTAGON THAT WILL TELL THE PEOPLE THAT IN ORDER TO ACCOMPLISH RESULTS, WE ALL HAVE TO CONTRIBUTE AND WE HAVE TO CONTRIBUTE WITH SOUND POLICIES, SOUND GOVERNMENT AND DEMOCRATIC ADMINISTRATIONS.

I HOPE THIS WILL BE A LESSON THAT WE LEARNED OUT OF THE LAST DECADE WHERE SO MANY HAVE CREATED SO MUCH DAMAGE IN TERMS OF ECONOMIC VALUES AND DIVIDING OUR SOCIETIES.

>> FORMER PRESIDENT IVAN DUQUE, THANKS FOR BEING WITH US.

NOW, TAKE A LOOK AT THIS VIDEO ♪ ♪ MUSIC BLARING, PEOPLE DANCING FREELY, WOMEN DRESSED CASUALLY, NOTHING UNUSUAL, EXCEPT, THIS IS IRAN, WHILE THE COUNTRY IS STILL A THEOCRATIC POLICE STATE, INCREASINGLY, WOMEN ARE GOING TO JOB FREE, THREE YEARS SINCE, DIED IN THE CUSTODY OF THE SO-CALLED MORALITY POLICE ARRESTED FOR ALLEGEDLY FAILING TO WEAR HER HEADSCARF PROPERLY, PROTESTS OVER HER DEATH WERE MET WITH A BRUTAL CRACKDOWN AND YET A GROWING YOUTH MOVEMENT IS BRAVELY INSISTING ON SOCIAL FREEDOMS.

JOINING ME WITH MOM THIS IS THE, WELCOME BACK TO OUR PROGRAM.

>> HI CHRISTIANE, THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>> THERE YOU ARE IN NEW YORK, REPORTING ALL OF THIS INTERESTING DEVELOPMENTS.

OKAY, WHAT IS IT, DO YOU THINK IT'S JUST A BUNCH OF YOUNG PEOPLE LETTING OFF STEAM AND THE AUTHORITIES THINKING WELL, LET'S LET THEM FOR A LITTLE BIT, LET'S NOT CREATE ANOTHER POLITICAL EARTHQUAKE, OR, IS IT MORE REAL THAN THAT?

>> I THINK THAT THIS IS FAR TOO WIDESPREAD AND NATIONWIDE AND SORT OF A COLLECTIVE MOVEMENT OF REALLY THE RE-YOUTH RECLAIMING SPACE IN IRAN.

WE SAW THE START WITH THE WOMEN SORT OF COLLECTIVELY DECIDING THAT THEY WERE GOING TO BE DONE WITH THE MANDATORY HIJAB, AND MAKING THAT A FACT ON THE GROUND BECAUSE WHEN THE NUMBERS ARE TOO MUCH, WHEN THIS WAS HAPPENING, NOT IN SMALL POCKETS BUT ALL OVER THE PLACE, THE GOVERNMENT HAS A CHALLENGE, THEY SAID THEY WANT TO COUNTER IT BUT THEY SAID IT'S CHALLENGING FOR THEM TO DO THAT.

I'VE SORT OF BEEN WATCHING THESE VIDEOS, INCLUDING THE CONCERT ONE THAT YOU SHOWED, POURING IN FROM YOU KNOW, PARKS THAT HAVE MORNING YOGA, TO A MARATHON IN THE CONSERVATIVE CITY, WHERE MEN AND WOMEN ARE RUNNING TOGETHER, A PARTY IN ESTHER BOND, IMPROMPTU DANCE PARTIES AT CAFIS AND MALLS ALL OVER THE COUNTRY, STREET MUSICIANS AND WOMEN SINGING SOLO HAS BECOME SORT OF A STAPLE OF CITIES, HIP-HOP DANCERS ARE POPPING UP AND YOUNG WOMEN ARE DANCING TO CHEERING CROWDS.

YOU KNOW, IT REALLY POINTS OUT, CHRISTIANE, TO A REALLY COURAGEOUS JEN SEE, THAT ONCE TO SORT OF SAY THAT WE ARE NOT GOING TO ALLOW THE ISLAMIC GOVERNMENT TO TELL US HOW TO BEHAVE, HOW TO DRESS, YOU KNOW, WHAT TO DO, AND WE ARE GOING TO REMOVE THIS BARRIER THAT HAS EXISTED, WHERE YOU LIVE ONE WAY PRIVATELY AND YOU LIVE ONE WAY PUBLICLY.

THE YOUTH JUST WANT TO LIVE THE WAY THEY WANT TO LIVE EVERYWHERE, AND I THINK THAT THIS IS THE LONG GAME.

>> AS YOU SAY, YOU QUOTE IN YOUR ARTICLE, YOUNG IRANIANS, WE HAVE A FEARLESS GENERATION THAT IS BREAKING TABOOS.

SO, BEFORE WE GET TO THE REACTION FROM THE GOVERNMENT WHICH IS REALLY INTERESTING, DO YOU THINK THAT THERE ARE UNDERLYING SOCIAL, ECONOMIC, EVEN MILITARY INTERVENTIONS, THOSE KINDS OF PRESSURES THAT LEAD TO, WE KNOW THE ECONOMY IS SO AWFUL, ESPECIALLY YOUNG PEOPLE CAN BARELY KEEP THEIR HEAD ABOVE WATER.

WE KNOW THERE ARE ACTUAL WATER SHORTAGES BECAUSE OF MISMANAGEMENT, YOU KNOW, THE ENVIRONMENT, THREATS THAT THE CAPITAL CITY MIGHT HAVE TO BE EVACUATED, AND THEN THERE'S THE WHOLE PUBLIC DEMAND FOR UNITY AFTER THE WAR THAT ISRAEL AND THE UNITED STATES LAUNCHED.

OTHERS CONTRIBUTING TO THIS OR NOT?

>> I THINK THE GOVERNMENT HAS ITS HAND FULL OF LOTS OF CRISES, AS YOU POINTED OUT, WATER, POLLUTION, ENERGY CRISIS, A TANKING ECONOMY, DEALING WITH SORT OF, A WAR WITH ISRAEL AND A POTENTIAL OTHER ROUND OF YOU KNOW, STRIKES , THAT EVERYBODY'S WORRIED ABOUT AND OF COURSE, THE YOUTH ARE NOT IMMUNE TO THIS.

A LOT OF PEOPLE WE INTERVIEWED IN IRAN SAID LOOK, JUST BECAUSE WE ARE OUT DANCING AT CONCERTS OR GOING TO THIS EVENT OR THAT EVENT, DOESN'T MEAN THAT WE ARE IN DIFFERENT, THAT WE DON'T CARE.

BUT THE GOVERNMENT SEEMS TO WANT TO GIVE A LITTLE BIT OF OPEN SPACE PERHAPS, TO SORT OF NOT CREATE ANOTHER SOCIAL CRISIS FOR ITSELF, AND PEOPLE ARE RUNNING WITH THAT LITTLE OPENNESS THAT HAS HAPPENED.

SO I THINK THAT, TO THE EXTENT THAT THE GOVERNMENT IS CONCERNED, IT SEEMS LIKE THE GOVERNMENT DOESN'T WANT TO NOW CREATE ANOTHER TIME WHERE IT'S CRACKING DOWN ON THE YOUTH OR THE WOMEN AND RISK HAVING ANOTHER SOCIAL UPRISING ADDING TO ALL THE PROBLEM IS IT'S HAVING.

I THINK THEY ARE UNDERPINNING, BUT IT'S NOT THE ONLY REASON, GEN Z IS REALLY CONNECTED TO THE OUTSIDE WORLD, AND YOU KNOW, IT'S, IT'S A MOVEMENT.

>> YOU KNOW, IT'S REALLY INTERESTING, OBVIOUSLY YOU MENTIONED THE NEW PRESIDENT, WHILE THE PRESIDENT, HIS SPOKESMAN FOR THE GOVERNMENT SAID IN SEPTEMBER CONCERTS WILL QUOTE INCREASE COLLECTIVE HAPPINESS AND HOLDING CONCERTS WITH MILLIONS OF PEOPLE PARTICIPATING STRENGTHENS OUR UNITY.

I MEAN, I DON'T KNOW WHAT KIND OF TIME WARP THAT I'M READING BECAUSE A YEAR OR MORE AGO, HE WOULD HAVE SAID THE OPPOSITE.

BUT HE SAID THEY DON'T WANT TO USE THE FAILED METHODS OF THE PAST, I ASSUME THE CRACKDOWNS ON WOMEN AND OUTSIDE MUSIC, HIJAB, ET CETERA, AND HE HAS REALLY CAMPAIGNED ON THAT.

HE CAMPAIGNED ON THAT.

SO, WHAT IS HE SAYING TO THE SUPREME LEADER THAT SO FAR, HAS AVOIDED A CRACKDOWN ON THIS?

>> I THINK TODAY, THE CHIEF SAID WE ARE GOING TO TRY TO FIND WAYS TO MAKE WOMEN OBSERVE THE HIJAB LAW AND FIND WAYS TO BRING, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE BACK IN, BUT THERE'S BEEN PUSHED BACK BY THE PRESIDENT BECAUSE HE CAMPAIGNED ON MORE SOCIAL FREEDOMS AND I THINK BECAUSE AGAIN, THEY RECOGNIZE THAT THIS IS TOO MANY PEOPLE, IT'S NOT LIMITED TO A POCKET IN NORTHERN TEHRAN, IT REALLY IS A NATIONWIDE PHENOMENON, AND THEY CAN'T ARREST EVERYBODY, THEY CAN'T CRACKDOWN AND FINE EVERYBODY.

HE HAS SAID, LOOK, MY POLICIES ARE NOT TO CREATE, QUOTE, HE SAID I DON'T WANT TO CREATE A CONFLICT THAT I CAN'T REALLY THEN CONTAINED IN SOCIETY.

SO, THERE'S BEEN HESITATION BY THE GOVERNMENT TO UNLEASH SORT OF THE AROUND THE POLICE, AND IT SORT OF TO THE EXTENT THAT THEY HAVE FIND A BUSINESS THAT WAS HOLDING A DANCE PARTY OR CANCELED AN EVENT HERE AND THERE AT THE DESIGN SHOW, IT'S LIKE PLAYING A GAME OF WHACK A MOLE, THEY CRACKDOWN, THEY ARREST SOMEBODY, THEY FIND SOMEBODY BUT IT'S TOO WIDESPREAD.

>> WHACK A MOLE.

>> IT'S TOTALLY A GAME OF WHACK A MOLE, AND IT'S INTERESTING, BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, CONSERVATIVE POLITICIANS ARE ACKNOWLEDGING, THEY ARE SAYING THE, WE ARE FACING A GENERATION THAT IS INDIFFERENT TO POWER.

IT'S NOT ALLOWING US TO TELL IT WHAT TO DO, AND THIS IS WHERE IRAN IS GOING TO CHANGE AND THIS IS WHERE IRAN IS CHANGING.

THE THINGS WE ARE SAYING ARE NOT HAPPENING WITH YOU KNOW, WITH BOMBS OR MILITARY INTERVENTION, OPPOSITION FIGURES TELLING PEOPLE WHAT TO DO, THIS IS A GRASSROOTS MOVEMENT FROM WITHIN.

AND I THINK THIS IS WHY THE PEOPLE THAT WE SPOKE TO IN IRAN, SOCIOLOGIST, YOUNG PEOPLE, POLITICAL ANALYST, THEY SAID, THIS IS SO GRASSROOTS THAT WE THINK THAT THE YOUTH AND THE WOMEN ARE GOING TO WIN IN THE LONG GAME.

>> I WANT TO PICK UP ON WHAT YOU SAID BECAUSE THERE ARE OBVIOUSLY SOME FISSURES AMONGST THE CONSERVATIVES.

ATLANTIC MAGAZINE QUOTES A CONSERVATIVE POLITICIAN LAST MONTH TELLING A NEWS OUTLET THAT HE DIDN'T BELIEVE IN THE HIJAB MANDATE AND THAT THE ENFORCEMENT WAS NO LONGER FEASIBLE AND HE SAID THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE WANT TO SIMPLY LIVE THEIR LIVES.

THAT'S ALL TRUE, OBVIOUSLY, BUT THERE WAS PUSHBACK FROM A PRAYER LEADER WHO SAID WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE?

TO SAY SUCH THINGS?

WHO GAVE YOU SUCH PERMISSION?

SO YOU AND I KNOW, THERE'S ALWAYS A BATTLE BETWEEN THE PUBLIC AND THE PEOPLE AND SOMETIMES WITHIN THE LEADERSHIP.

WHO IS GOING TO WIN THIS WAR INSIDE THE CONSERVATIVE SIDE?

THE RELIGIOUS CONSERVATIVE SIDE?

>> WELL, I, YOU KNOW, IRAN IS FLUID, RIGHT?

THERE'S DEFINITELY TENSION WITHIN THE CONSERVATIVES AS WELL, CONSERVATIVES WHO SAY WE NEED TO BE MORE PRAGMATIC, AND THE HARDLINERS, INCLUDING THE SUPREME LEADER, WHO SAYS NO, WE ARE AN ISLAMIC COUNTRY AND THE OPTICS HAVE TO LOOK LIKE AN ISLAMIC COUNTRY.

THEY'VE LOST THE OPTICS, AND THAT IS WHAT IS VERY CONCERNING FOR THEM, RIGHT, BECAUSE TO THE EXTENT THAT THE REVOLUTION WAS GOING TO DELIVER ISLAMIC JUSTICE, ECONOMIC JUSTICE, SUPPORTING THE POOR, GETTING RID OF CORRUPTION, IT HAS FAILED ON ALL OF THOSE FRIENDS, AND IT HASN'T EVEN BEEN ABLE TO DELIVER YOU KNOW, ANY SORT OF, YOU KNOW, DEMOCRATIC CHANGE OR ANY OF IT, REALLY FOUNDATIONS, THAT THEY CLAIMED THAT THEY WERE BRINGING, SO THE ONLY THING THAT IT HAS TO CLEAN ON IS THE OPTICS OF AN ISLAMIC REVOLUTION AND NOW THEY'VE LOST THE OPTICS, TOO.

SO IT'S REALLY KIND OF LIKE THEY VIEW THIS AS AN EXISTENTIAL CRISIS.

I THINK ULTIMATELY, THE PRAGMATICS ARE GOING TO WIN BECAUSE THEY HAVE TRIED AS MANY PEOPLE POINT OUT, ALL THE OTHER WAYS, AND IT'S ONLY BACKFIRED.

IT'S ONLY LED TO, YOU KNOW, THE YOUTH BEING MORE SORT OF, YOU KNOW, EMBOLDENING THEM.

IT WAS INTERESTING, I READ SOMEWHERE THAT ONE OF THE CONSERVATIVES SAID, YOU KNOW, WE'VE GOTTEN TO A POINT WHERE YOU KNOW, MAHSA AMINI'S HIJAB, WHERE THAT WAS OUR DREAM, WE DREAM OF WOMEN COMING OUT WITH JUST A LOOSE SCARF, BUT THEY CAN'T GET THAT -- CAN'T GET BACK TO THAT POINT.

>> LOOSE SCARF TO KNOW SCARF.

BUT HERE'S THE THING, OF COURSE, THERE IS NO POLITICAL SPACE, IT'S STILL VERY REPRESSED, ORDINARY PEOPLE ARE STILL FILLING THE GELS AND ACCORDING TO AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL IN SEPTEMBER, THEY SAID OVER 1100 PEOPLE WERE EXECUTED IN 2025.

THAT'S IN THE FIRST THREE QUARTERS OF 23 FIVE, THE HIGHEST IN 15 YEARS, SO, WE CAN, YOU KNOW, ENJOY WHAT'S GOING ON IN TERMS OF SOCIAL MOVEMENT, BUT THE ACTUAL SO- CALLED ISLAMIC JUSTICE IS BEING METERED OUT FIERCELY.

WHAT, I MEAN, HOW DO YOU RECONCILE ALL OF THAT?

>> WHAT, POLITICAL REPRESSION IS STILL A CORNERSTONE OF THE ISLAMIC PILGRIMAGE IN IRAN.

THEY'RE STILL CRACKING DOWN ON DISSIDENTS, THEY RECENTLY ARRESTED ECONOMISTS, AND JOURNALISTS AND DISSIDENTS AND THAT IS GOING ON, AS YOU POINTED OUT, THAT SENTENCES ARE BEING HANDED OUT, EXECUTIONS ARE HAPPENING.

WE ARE NOT REALLY SEEING ANY SORT OF, OPENING ON THE POLITICAL FRONT, BUT, SOCIALLY, IT IS.

SO, YOU KNOW, I THINK PEOPLE IN IRAN SAY, LOOK, IT'S NOT LIKE THE GOVERNMENT HAS DECIDED TO ALLOW US TO, YOU KNOW, NOT WHERE THE HIJAB, IT FELT LIKE THE GOVERNMENT HAS DECIDED THAT WE ARE CERTAINLY GOING TO ALLOW YOGA AND MARATHONS, IT IS THE PEOPLE, THE YOUNG PEOPLE, THE YOUTH, THE WOMEN, WHO, YOU KNOW, THROUGH THEIR SHARE PERSEVERANCE AND YOU KNOW, CIVIL DISOBEDIENCE ARE RECLAIMING THAT RIGHT.

SO THERE IS A TENSION BETWEEN THE GOVERNMENT AND THE PEOPLE.

SOCIALLY, WE ARE SEEING THESE SPIN UPS, BUT REALLY WHERE TO WATCH, IT'S THE SOCIAL FREEDOMS, IF THEY LAST, IF THEY WILL HAVE ANY INFLUENCE ON POLITICS OR NOT.

IN PLACES LIKE SAUDI ARABIA, MAYBE THERE'S, YOU KNOW, WE ARE SEEING SOCIAL FREEDOMS BUT NOT POLITICAL FREEDOMS.

SO I THINK IRAN IS SORT OF A LITTLE BIT LIKE THAT RIGHT NOW.

>> AND PEZESHKIAN HAS ADMITTED THAT THERE'S ALMOST NO SUPPORT FOR THE GOVERNMENT, THEY SAY WHEN WE SEE IN SURVEYS THAT PEOPLE ARE DISCONTENTED ABOUT THE ADMINISTRATION, WE CANNOT PROVIDE SERVICES TO PEOPLE.

SO QUICKLY, WHAT DOES THAT MEAN, DO YOU THINK IT WILL BE WHAT EVERYBODY OUTSIDE WANTS TO SEE WHICH IS THE TOPPING OF THE AUTOCRACY, THE THEOCRACY.

10 SECONDS.

>> I DON'T THINK THERE'S ANY REAL SIGNS OF THE GOVERNMENT TOPPLING FROM WITHIN, AND I DON'T THINK WE HAVE ANY, YOU KNOW, A MILITARY INVASION TO TOPPLE THE REGIME RIGHT NOW, FROM THE OUTSIDE, SO TOPPLING OF THE GOVERNMENT, DOES NOT SEEM LIKE IT'S IN THE IMMEDIATE FUTURE, EVEN IF MANY PEOPLE DESIRE IT.

>> THANK YOU ALWAYS.

DESPITE LENGTHY NEGOTIATIONS, IT APPEARS THE WAR RUSSIA LAUNCHED AGAINST UKRAINE IS NO CLOSER TO ENDING.

RUSSIAN AND AMERICAN AIDES REPORTED FIVE HOURS OF CONVERSATIONS IN MOSCOW EARLIER THIS WEEK PRODUCED PROGRESS BUT DURING A VISIT TO INDIA, PRESIDENT PUTIN THREATENED TO LIBERATE THE DONBAS REGION, BY MILITARY OR OTHER MEANS THAT IS EASTERN UKRAINE.

A UKRAINIAN DELEGATION HEADS TO FLORIDA TO MEET WITH U.S.

OFFICIALS IN A BID FOR A CEASE- FIRE.

JOSHUA YAFFA, CONTRIBUTOR WRITER FOR THE NEW YORKER HAS REPORTED ON THE WAR SINCE 2022 AND HE JOINS MICHEL MARTIN TO DISCUSS WHAT IT WILL TAKE TO STOP IT.

>> JOSHUA, THANKS FOR TALKING WITH US ONCE AGAIN.

YOU KNOW, WE TALKED AT THE BEGINNING OF THIS CONFLICT, THE BEGINNING OF THIS ALL OUT INVASION OF UKRAINE, ARE YOU SURPRISED WE ARE HAVING THE SAME CONVERSATION FOR YEARS LATER?

>> HARD TO THINK BACK TO THOSE EARLY DAYS OF THE WAR, WHEN I WAS IN KYIV, AND WE SPOKE, I THINK I WAS IN A SUBWAY STATION.

>> YEAH, YOU WERE.

>> SHELTERING WITH OTHER RESIDENTS OF THE CITY WHERE ACTUALLY MANY RESIDENTS OF KYIV STILL GO TO SHELTER FROM RUSSIAN AIR ATTACKS, SO THERE IS A KIND OF SAD, TRAGIC, GROUNDHOG DAY, AND HOW IT FEELS FOR THE PEOPLE IN UKRAINE.

REALLY, THE DYNAMICS OF THE WAR, WHY THE WAR STARTED AND HOW IT MIGHT END, THEY HAD STAYED REMARKABLY CONSTANT, WHICH IS ESSENTIALLY, RUSSIA, PUTIN, HE WOULD SEEK TO SEVERELY LIMIT OR IF NOT NEGATE UKRAINIAN SOVEREIGNTY, TO LIMIT BOTH POLITICALLY, CERTAINLY MILITARILY, OR THE KIND OF POTENTIAL THAT UKRAINE HAS TO CHART ITS OWN COURSE, ESPECIALLY IF THAT MEANS GROWING CLOSER WITH THE WEST AND ABOVE ALL, MELT MILITARILY THROUGH NATO.

SO THAT IS SOMETHING THAT PUTIN SEEKS TO NOT JUST LIMIT BUT ESSENTIALLY, TAKE OFF THE TABLE FOR GENERATIONS TO COME.

IT'S A HISTORICAL PROJECT FOR HIM.

UKRAINE, LOOKS TO PRESERVE THAT SOVEREIGNTY, RIGHT?

LOOKS TO PRESERVE ITS SOVEREIGN RIGHT TO CHART ITS OWN HISTORICAL PATH, CULTURALLY, POLITICALLY, MILITARILY, RIGHT, THE MILITARY ASPECT IS SEEN AS A WAY OF PROTECTING THE OTHER REALMS, SO, WHAT PUTIN SEEKS TO ACHIEVE IS GOING, IT'S EXACTLY WHAT UKRAINE CONSIDERS A NONSTARTER, SOMETHING IT CAN'T AGREE TO AS IT UNDERSTANDS, FOR SURVIVAL OF THE NATION, SO, WE ARE AT LOGGERHEADS, WE ARE AT A WAR THAT GRINDS ON.

HE SIGHED, THINKING THAT A BIT MORE TIME CAN IMPROVE ITS POSITION, MAINLY BECAUSE IT WILL EXHAUST ITS OPPONENT, AND THAT'S REALLY THE GRINDING LOGIC OF THE WAR THAT WE ARE STILL STUCK IN FOUR YEARS LATER.

>> ONE OF THE REASONS WE ARE SPEAKING NOW IS THAT WE ARE IN THE MIDST OF A FLURRY OF DIPLOMATIC MOVES.

PRESIDENT TRUMP'S ENVOY, STEVE WITKOFF, HIS FORMER GOLF BUDDY, FELLOW REAL ESTATE DEVELOPER AND HIS SON-IN-LAW, JARED KUSHNER, THEY CONCLUDED THIS HOURS LONG SESSION WITHOUT THE UNITED STATES, INTERESTINGLY ENOUGH, AND THE UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT HAS BEEN BACK AND FORTH TO EUROPE, TRYING TO SHORE UP SUPPORT THERE.

THIS COMES AFTER, THIS LENGTHY SORT OF PEACE PROPOSAL WAS PUT ON THE TABLE, EXTENSIVELY, CRAFTED BY THE UNITED STATES BUT IT'S EMERGED THAT IT WAS INITIALLY BASED ON RUSSIA'S TALKING POINTS.

SO THE FIRST THING I WANTED TO ASK YOU, IS, DOES THIS FLURRY OF DIPLOMACY MEAN ANYTHING TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE IN THE CONTEXT OF WHAT WE SEEN SO FAR?

DOES IT SEEM LIKE THERE'S ANY KIND OF INFLECTION POINT OR IS IT JUST ANOTHER DAY?

>> THERE ARE SOME NEW DYNAMICS, DESPITE WHAT WE TALKED ABOUT A MINUTE AGO, THE KIND OF LOGIC OF THE WAR HAS RAINED CONSTANT, COURSE THERE ARE DYNAMICS THAT COME UP, YOU LOOK AT THE MOST IMPORTANT ONE, DONALD TRUMP, AS PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES HAS A DRAMATICALLY DIFFERENT POSITION REGARDING RUSSIA, I DON'T THINK WE NEED TO GO OVER HIS HISTORY OF CONCILIATORY STATEMENTS AGAINST PUTIN BUT I THINK WHAT IS MOST IMPORTANT IS TRUMP'S DESIRE TO END THE WAR, IF PRESIDENT BIDEN HAD A DESIRE TO END THE WAR IN A WAY THAT HE AND HIS EUROPEAN PARTNERS WOULD DELIVER, KIND OF BOTH DURABLE AND JUST PEACE FOR UKRAINE, TRUMP IS INTERESTED IN GETTING A DIPLOMATIC VICTORY, HIS NOBEL PEACE PRIZE LIKE FOR EXAMPLE WAS THE GAZA DEAL FROM LAST FALL WHERE HOW THE WAR ENDED WAS LESS IMPORTANT THAN THE FACT THAT HE DID AND, SO IT FLOWS FROM THAT, THAT IT'S ONLY NATURAL IF YOU ARE INTERESTED IN SPEED, THAT YOU EFFECTIVELY PUT PRESSURE ON THE WEAKER PARTY, AND THAT IS UKRAINE, AND UKRAINE IS THE WEAKER PARTY FOR A NUMBER OF REASONS, CERTAINLY BY LOOKING AT THE BATTLEFIELD DYNAMICS, THE RUSSIAN ARMY, OBJECTIVELY, MUCH LARGER, IT'S MOVING FORWARD, AND UKRAINE IS LOSING TERRITORY.

AT THE SAME TIME, UKRAINE IS UNDER INCREASING FINANCIAL PRESSURE, THE UKRAINE BUDGET CAN BE RUNNING OUT OF CASH EFFECTIVELY, AND THE POLITICAL CRISIS STEMMING FROM A CORRUPTION SCANDAL IN UKRAINE THAT IT'S REALLY CLOSE TO ZELENSKYY, PEOPLE AROUND HIM, HIS LONGTIME CHIEF OF STAFF, RIGHT-HAND MAN, WAS FORCED TO RESIGN THIS WEEK UNDER THE SPECTER OF A CORRUPTION ALLEGATION.

ALL THAT COMES TOGETHER TO PUT UKRAINE IN A MUCH MORE DIFFICULT AND VULNERABLE POSITION, AND IT'S THAT POSITION THAT RUSSIA HOPES THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION WILL EFFECTIVELY EXPLOIT.

THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION WILL BE SO INTERESTED IN A PEACE DEAL, FAST, AND KIND OF REALLY TWIST UKRAINE'S ARM.

PUTIN THINKS THAT TIME WILL BRING HIM CLOSER TO VICTORY.

AS FAR AS PUTIN SEES IT, EITHER HE GETS THE DEAL THAT HE WANTS OR HE DOESN'T AND KEEPS FIGHTING AND THAT WILL GET HIM CLOSE TO THE DEAL HE WANTS, EVENTUALLY.

>> WHAT DOES PUTIN WANT?

THAT WAS INTERESTING ABOUT THE 28 POINT PEACE PLAN THAT WAS BASED ON KIND OF A TRANSCRIPT OF THE LEAKED PHONE CALL THAT WAS REPORTED BY BLOOMBERG, WHERE THE PRESENCE ENVOY, STEVE WITKOFF, WAS OVERHEARD SPEAKING TO HIS RUSSIAN COUNTERPART, AND COACHING HIM ON HOW TO WIN OVER PRESIDENT TRUMP.

IT WAS INTERESTING BECAUSE IT KIND OF LAID OUT RUSSIAN OBJECTIVES IN BLACK AND WHITE.

WHAT ARE THEY?

>> FIRST I WOULD CAUTION A LITTLE BIT OF SEEING THAT 28 POINT WITKOFF PLAN AS A PURE EXPRESSION OF RUSSIA OR PUTIN PRIORITIES, CERTAINLY THERE WAS RUSSIAN IMPORT -- INPUT, WE KNOW NOW ABOUT THE GENESIS OF THAT DOCUMENT BUT MY SOURCES IN MOSCOW, I WROTE ABOUT THIS IN THE NEW YORKER, THEY WERE ACTUALLY CAUTIOUS ABOUT THAT DOCUMENT, THESE ARE KIND OF POTENTIALLY, SON, KIND OF ATTRACTIVE FOR RUSSIA BUT HOW ARE THEY IMPLEMENTED, HOW CAN RUSSIA COUNT ON THEM?

EVEN TRUMP AS ONE SOURCE TELL -- TOLD ME, HE'S A TEMPORARY PHENOMENON, HE COULD BE OUT OF OFFICE IN THREE YEARS AND JUST LIKE POLICY SHIFTED DRAMATICALLY FROM BIDEN TO TRUMP, IT COULD SHIFT AGAIN.

NOW TO THE CORE QUESTION.

WHAT PUTIN ONCE AND HE SPOKE ABOUT THIS OPENLY.

HE THINKS UKRAINE HAS ESSENTIALLY BECOME, HE CALLS IT A QUOTE, ANTI-RUSSIAN PROJECT.

IT'S BEEN LED ASTRAY BY THE WEST, WITH ITS INTEGRATION WITH MILITARY STRUCTURES LIKE NATO, IT'S A HISTORICAL ABERRATION BUT THAT'S NOT UKRAINE'S PLACE AND IT'S BEING LET OUT OF RUSSIA'S RIGHTFUL SPEAR, AND THEY CAN'T TOLERATE THIS PRODUCT ON RUSSIAN BORDERS, THE IDEA THAT THERE WOULD BE FOREIGN MILITARY BASES, FOREIGN TROOPS STATIONED IN UKRAINE WITH UKRAINE THAT IS CULTURALLY AND HISTORICALLY REJECTING RUSSIA.

ALL IT FEELS LIKE A SECURITY THREAT, AS PUTIN SEES IT, IT'S A NONSTARTER, A NONSTARTER FOR RUSSIA AND FOR HIS OWN POLITICAL LEGACY THAT HE IS TRYING TO ENSURE, AND WE ARE DEALING WITH AN AUTOCRAT WHO'S BEEN IN POWER FOR 26 YEARS AND COUNTING, AND I THINK THAT AFFECTS HOW HE SEES THE WORLD AND HIS OWN PLACE IN RUSSIAN HISTORY.

WHAT THIS IS NOT ABOUT HIS TERRITORY.

IT'S NOT ABOUT LINES ON A MAP, IT'S NOT ABOUT, WHERE ARE THE BORDERS, WHO CONTROLS WHAT CITY?

ALL OF THOSE ISSUES ARE PROXIES FOR PUTIN'S REAL ISSUE WHICH IS THAT UKRAINE CANNOT BE ALLOWED TO BE A THREAT AS HE DEFINES IT.

>> AND WHY IS THE COST WORTH IT TO HIM?

WE'VE BEEN REPORTING IT, AND PR, WE REPORTED THAT HE'S LOSING AS MANY AS 25,000 SOLDIERS A MONTH.

WHAT MAKES IT WORTH THAT COST IN LIVES?

>> WHAT'S IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER IS PUTIN'S INITIAL CALCULATION IN LAUNCHING THIS IS THAT THE UKRAINIAN ARMY WOULD CRUMBLE AND HE WOULD BE IN KYIV IN THREE DAYS.

HE HAS ENDED UP IN A WAR THAT HE NEVER COUNTED ON.

HE COUNTED ON SOMETHING DIFFERENT.

WHAT HE'S ENDED UP IN IS A WAR OF ATTRITION, AND THE GRIM, DARK LOGIC OF A WAR OF ATTRITION IS YOU WIN BY HAVING YOUR OPPONENT LOSE MORE.

SO EVERYTHING YOU JUST SAID ABOUT LOSS OF TROOPS, COST OF THE ECONOMY, IT'S RELATIVE TO HOW THOSE FACTORS ARE WEIGHING ON UKRAINE, RIGHT, AND UKRAINE IS A SMALLER COUNTRY, ECONOMICALLY, POPULATION, AND THERE ARE LARGE QUESTIONS ABOUT UKRAINE'S ABILITY TO FIELD, THE MANPOWER QUESTION IS VERY REAL, AND THE FINANCIAL QUESTION ACCORDING TO SOME PROGNOSES, UKRAINE COULD BE IN SERIOUS FINANCIAL DEFICIT, RUNNING OUT OF CASH TO RUN THE COUNTRY BY THE FIRST QUARTER OF NEXT YEAR.

EUROPE, AS UKRAINE'S CHIEF FINANCIAL BACKER THAT THEY CAN'T SEEM TO GET A PLAN TOGETHER, THEY CAN'T SEEM TO GET THIS MONEY.

SO GETTING BACK TO YOUR QUESTION, THIS WAR IS INCREDIBLY, COSTLY FOR PUTIN.

HE WOULD LIKE FOR IT TO END, BUT, HIS CALCULATION IS THAT, HE CAN ACHIEVE HIS STRATEGIC OBJECTIVES WITH TIME BECAUSE THINGS ARE ACTUALLY WORSE FOR UKRAINE AND ITS UKRAINE THAT WOULD BE FORCED TO EFFECTIVELY BEND THE KNEE, FASTER THAN RUSSIA WILL RUN OUT OF, WHETHER IT'S TROOPS TO FUEL THE WORK, MONEY TO FUEL THE WAR AND SO ON.

>> LET'S TALK ABOUT THE EUROPEAN POSITION.

THEY SAID IF RUSSIA IS REWARDED OR SUCCESSFUL IN INVADING UKRAINE, YOU KNOW, WHO'S NEXT?

COULD IT BE POLAND?

COULD IT BE MULLED OVER?

WHO'S NEXT?

THE QUESTION IS, WHY ISN'T THERE MORE URGENCY IN EUROPE AROUND SUPPORTING UKRAINE, AT LEAST GIVING THEM THE RESOURCES TO RESIST?

>> THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION.

WHEN I ASKED OFTEN AS A REPORTER WHO LIVES IN EUROPE.

I'M BASED IN BERLIN, I'M TALKING TO YOU FROM WARSAW, AND OF COURSE THE VIEW IN WARSAW IS DIFFERENT THAN THE VIEW IN BUDAPEST, HUNGARY OR IN A PLACE LIKE PORTUGAL, GREECE, RIGHT, FRONT LINE STATES AS THEY ARE CALLED, THEY HAVE A DIFFERENT VIEW OF THIS BUT THAT'S PART OF THE PROBLEM KIND OF HOW DO YOU TRIANGULATE POSITIONS IN THE STATES THAT HAVE DIFFERENT SENSES OF URGENCY, SOME ARE DEALING WITH THEIR OWN DOMESTIC SITUATIONS.

THERE'S APPETITE FOR TAKING OUT NEW LOANS, ESSENTIALLY HAVING TAXPAYERS FOOT THE BILL.

YOUR QUESTION REALLY, IS THE CORRECT ONE, AND I DON'T HAVE AN ANSWER TO IT.

THE EUROPEANS WERE SO UPSET ABOUT THE EMERGENCE OF THESE 28 POINTS AND HOW IT WAS DONE, DIDN'T TAKE INTO ACCOUNT EUROPEAN INTEREST.

WHERE'S THE EUROPEAN PEACE PLAN?

A VACUUM WILL BE FILLED IN PERHAPS WAYS THAT YOU DON'T LIKE, BUT, I DIDN'T SEE EUROPEAN DIPLOMATS OUT IN FRONT OF THE EU LED PEACE PLAN.

THERE WAS AN ATTEMPT TO CREATE ONE AFTER WITKOFF AND THE 28 POINTS EMERGE BUT THAT WAS THE CASE DISCARDED BY RUSSIA AND TRUMP AND IT SEEMS LIKE EUROPE HASN'T ATTEMPTED SINCE.

AND ABOUT THE MONEY, THAT'S THE CRUX OF THE MATTER, EUROPEAN POLITICIANS, THEY SAY ALL THE RIGHT THINGS ABOUT THE IMPORTANCE OF SUPPORTING UKRAINE, THE STRATEGIC INTEREST IN MAKING SURE UKRAINE DOESN'T LOSE THE WAR, THAT RUSSIAN AGGRESSION CANNOT BE REWARDED, BUT WHERE, YOU KNOW, WHERE DOES THE RUBBER HIT THE ROAD?

>> YOU MENTIONED, WE DON'T KNOW -- WE DON'T NEED TO GO THROUGH THE LITANY OF STATEMENTS THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS MADE ABOUT PUTIN OVER THE YEARS BUT HAVE WE EVER FIGURED OUT WHY PRESIDENT TRUMP SEEMS SO DISPOSED TOWARDS THE RUSSIAN POSITION AND PUTIN, IN PARTICULAR?

>> I DON'T THINK THERE'S ANY RUSSIAN COPPER MONT, I DON'T THINK HE'S AFRAID OF SOME TAPE THAT MAY HAVE BEEN MADE AND THE RITZ CARLTON A FEW YEARS AGO THAT WAS DISCUSSED ALMOST A DECADE AGO, NOW, I THINK THE ANSWER IS RATHER SIMPLE.

ONE, PUTIN IS A UNDERSTANDABLE KIND OF LEADER FOR TRUMP.

IT'S EASIER TO DEAL WITH PUTIN, STRONGMAN, UNITARY POWER IN HIS COUNTRY, ALSO, THE KIND OF MAN AND THE KIND OF LEADER THAT TRUMP, AGAIN, UNDERSTAND, ADVISE, KNOWS HOW TO DO BUSINESS WITH, AND IN THE CURRENT CONTEXT, I MENTIONED THIS EARLIER, WHAT TRUMP WANTS IS TO BE SEEN AS THE PEACEMAKER IN UKRAINE.

HE WANTS THE WAR TO BE OVER AND WANTS TO BE ABLE TO GO ON TRUTH SOCIAL AND SAY, I DID IT, I CREATED PEACE IN UKRAINE.

HE WANTS HIS NOBEL PRIZE, HE LIKE -- HE WANTS THE AURA THAT HE GOT IN GAZA, IT'S A PEACE PLAN WITH ALL OF THESE OTHER POINTS TO BE NEGOTIATED LATER, IS THAT HAPPENING?

I'M NO EXPERT ON THE MIDDLE EAST, BUT I THINK WHAT TRUMP WOULD LIKE IS SOMETHING SIMILAR IS THE HEADLINE OF PEACE AND THE PARTICULARS OF IT CAN BE DEALT WITH LATER OR NOT AT ALL.

>> YOU'VE BEEN IN AND OUT OF UKRAINE OVER THE COURSE OF THESE YEARS, AND YOU'VE TALKED TO PEOPLE ALL THE TIME, CLEARLY THEY ARE WAR WEARY, DO YOU HAVE A SENSE OF HOW THEY VIEW THE CURRENT SITUATION?

HE POINTED OUT THAT THERE'S BEEN, BODY BLOW AFTER BODY BLOW, SOME OF THEM SELF- INFLICTED LIKE THIS CORRUPTION SCANDAL, WHAT IS YOUR SENSE OF MORALE?

>> WAR WEARY IS THE RIGHT WORD.

KYIV, HAS BEEN RELATIVELY SPARED, A SEMBLANCE OF LIFE CONTINUES DURING THE DAY, BUT YOU KNOW, REGULAR DRONE ATTACKS AT NIGHT BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY FOR DAILY LIFE, LONG STRETCHES OF BLACKOUT, HOURS AT A TIME, 10 HOURS OR MORE.

IT LEADS TO A SENSE OF EXHAUSTION, EVEN IN THE CAPITAL CITY, LIFE IS SO IMPACTED.

YOU ASK TENS OF MILLIONS OF UKRAINIANS ABOUT HOW THE WAR IS AND YOU WILL GET AS MANY MILLIONS OF RESPONSES BUT GENERALLY, I THINK THERE IS A WILLINGNESS TO END THE WAR, KNOWING IT'S NOT GOING TO END WITH A RESOUNDING RUSSIAN DEFEAT THAT UKRAINE GETS ALL OF ITS TERRITORY BACK AND UKRAINIANS UNDERSTAND THAT THERE'S GOING TO BE AN UGLY DEAL TO END THE WAR.

IT'LL BE UGLY AND UNFAIR FOR UKRAINE, THAT THE AGGRESSOR IN SOME WAY WILL BE AWARDED.

I THINK, WE ARE OBJECTIVELY ON THAT TRAJECTORY.

WHAT UKRAINIANS WANT ABOVE ALL IS THE SENSE THAT, FOR THE SACRIFICES, CERTAINLY FOR THE LIVES LOST, HUGE LOSSES IN THE MILITARY, CREDIBLE LOSSES THAT YOU, MYSELF, OTHER COLLEAGUES HAVE DOCUMENTED, AT LEAST, UKRAINE GAINS ARE SECURITY GUARANTEES, WHAT IT MEANS IS THE CONFIDENT HOPE THAT THIS WILL NOT HAPPEN AGAIN IN ONE YEAR, TWO YEARS, FIVE YEARS, THAT THERE IS A DURABLE PEACE AND THAT MEANS A UKRAINE THAT IS SECURE, SOVEREIGN, OVER THE MEDIUM AND LONG TERM.

>> WHAT WILL YOU BE KEEPING YOUR EYES ON OVER THE NEXT MONTHS?

>> WELL, SO, UKRAINE, TO PUT IT SIMPLY, IS READY FOR COMPROMISE, REAL CONCESSIONS, NOT CAPITULATION.

WHEN UKRAINE IS READY TO MAKE PAINFUL CONCESSIONS TO END THE WAR, PUTIN ON THE OTHER HAND, IS STILL INSISTING ON HIS MAXIMALIST GOAL.

THE QUESTION IS, DO THOSE SHIFT AT ALL?

I THINK VICTORY IS AROUND THE CORNER SO I WILL KEEP ON PRESSING.

DOES ANYTHING IN HIS CALCULATION CHANGE?

DOES HE SOFTEN THOSE GOALS OR UNDERSTAND THAT OKAY, I WILL TAKE SEVEN OUT OF 10 OF THOSE POINTS, OR PERHAPS TWO THINGS, I'M NOT GETTING ANYWHERE, SO I BETTER DEAL WITH THEM.

RIGHT NOW THERE'S NO INDICATION OF EITHER THOSE DYNAMICS HAPPENING BUT SINCE UKRAINE IS WILLING TO MAKE A PAINFUL PIECE, IT'S THE BALL IN PUTIN'S COURT, DOES ANYTHING CHANGE, FOR RIGHT NOW, THE ANSWER IS NO BUT YOU KNOW, WARS CHANGE IN UNPREDICTABLE WAYS BUT AGAIN, KEEPING IN THE SAND THEME OF THIS CONVERSATION, I'M RATHER PESSIMISTIC.

I WOULD EXPECT THAT BUT THAT IS SOMETHING THAT COULD AFFECT THE DYNAMIC.

>> JOSHUA YAFFA, THANKS FOR TALKING WITH US AGAIN.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>> THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT UKRAINE IS BATTLING FOR.

FINALLY, DESPITE A NOMINAL CEASE-FIRE IN GAZA, ISRAEL IS AGAIN LAUNCHING AIRSTRIKES, THIS TIME ON A MAKESHIFT CAMP YESTERDAY EVENING KILLING A NUMBER OF CHILDREN BUT AMIDST THE PAIN AND DESTRUCTION, PEOPLE FOUND A RARE MOMENT TO REJOICE THIS WEEK AS HUNDREDS GATHERED IN THE RUINS TO CELEBRATE THE MARRIAGE OF MORE THAN 50 COUPLES.

A PARADE OF DRUMMERS, DANCERS AND SINGERS, JOYFULLY ESCORTING COUPLES TO THE WEDDING VENUE, IN THIS CASE, OUTDOORS IN THE OPEN AIR AMID MOUNTAINS OF RUBBLE.

THE WAR MADE IT IMPOSSIBLE FOR PALESTINIANS TO HOLD THESE KINDS OF GATHERINGS AND WHILE CHILDREN AND FAMILIES ARE STILL SUFFERING, TREMENDOUSLY, SMALL RAYS OF LIGHT AND GLIMMERS OF JOY SHINE THROUGH.

AND THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG, THANKS FOR WATCHING AND GOODBYE FROM LONDON.